Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
Moderator:Lamas
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Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
If we end up doing Naxx, then I really would like to bring Bodil at least for the first wings. I don't mind swapping in to heal on 4H or Frostwyrm, but most of the bosses don't have anything for Mell anymore. Harder Northrend stuff I'll of course bring Mell on.
I really do think we're ready for another Maly attempt.
I really do think we're ready for another Maly attempt.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
The thing is, the more alts we swap in, the slower we progress. If we can't progress faster, we can't /get/ to the end content. If we can't get to the end content, we can't get gear for our mains. If we can't get gear for our mains, we can't move into new content, and we run in circles forever.
We don't have hard and fast rules about bringing alts, but people really should be aware of the ripple effects.
I don't know whether Bodil or Mell currently does more damage, but the more DPS we bring, the faster we go. This is assuming we have both Dem and Myed for heals.
Speaking of, neither Myed nor I have been getting a lot of loot out of ANYTHING in the lower half of Naxx for literally months.
I hesitate to say this, of course, because of the danger of looking like a hypocrite now that Z is apparently needed as a tank, but... As much as I enjoy playing Z, I'm actually afraid that my main is going to be effectively switched without me wanting it, and we'll move into Ulduar with Z tanking and Eabah's gear getting left behind. This is also frustrating to me because Eabah is a lot more DPS than Z.
We don't have hard and fast rules about bringing alts, but people really should be aware of the ripple effects.
I don't know whether Bodil or Mell currently does more damage, but the more DPS we bring, the faster we go. This is assuming we have both Dem and Myed for heals.
Speaking of, neither Myed nor I have been getting a lot of loot out of ANYTHING in the lower half of Naxx for literally months.
I hesitate to say this, of course, because of the danger of looking like a hypocrite now that Z is apparently needed as a tank, but... As much as I enjoy playing Z, I'm actually afraid that my main is going to be effectively switched without me wanting it, and we'll move into Ulduar with Z tanking and Eabah's gear getting left behind. This is also frustrating to me because Eabah is a lot more DPS than Z.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
Just as a comment, Nat got her last upgrade from Naxx over a month before I burned out. There is *nothing* in the entire instance that she actually needs, at this point. There's some sidegrades, altspec, and gimmick gear. But in terms of progression gearing, she's done. I've brought Indi to *one* raid since we started, aside from using her for the 3-heal fights at the end of Naxx.
I kept going, because the guildies needed more gear, and more practice. But instead of getting faster and faster clears, we got *slower*, because of the number of people that swapped out for alts or just didn't show up and forced us to PuG. We should've had Naxx down as an all-guild 2-hour clear by now, instead of 5 hours on two days. So instead of working on Maly or Sarth+ on the off day, we're stuck doing Naxx both days. If we had a third raid day, it wouldn't have mattered much, but two days was our entire raid week. And we spent the entire thing doing content that I was categorically getting *nothing* for, because we couldn't get it down to a single-run clear. No gear, no rep, and I can't even use the Hembs because I already ground out all the Hemb gear on heroics.
I'd love to say that we're ready for another attempt on Maly, but we're not even close. We need our *average* DPS to be well over 2500. There's still people that weren't beating Nat at 2k on the last run. Maly is *hard*. Much harder than even the two Ulduar bosses that we've killed. It's *very* tightly tuned, and you need a *ton* of DPS to get him down before the Berserk. We don't even have Sarth+1 on reliable farm. Maly is about the same level as Sarth+2.
I kept going, because the guildies needed more gear, and more practice. But instead of getting faster and faster clears, we got *slower*, because of the number of people that swapped out for alts or just didn't show up and forced us to PuG. We should've had Naxx down as an all-guild 2-hour clear by now, instead of 5 hours on two days. So instead of working on Maly or Sarth+ on the off day, we're stuck doing Naxx both days. If we had a third raid day, it wouldn't have mattered much, but two days was our entire raid week. And we spent the entire thing doing content that I was categorically getting *nothing* for, because we couldn't get it down to a single-run clear. No gear, no rep, and I can't even use the Hembs because I already ground out all the Hemb gear on heroics.
I'd love to say that we're ready for another attempt on Maly, but we're not even close. We need our *average* DPS to be well over 2500. There's still people that weren't beating Nat at 2k on the last run. Maly is *hard*. Much harder than even the two Ulduar bosses that we've killed. It's *very* tightly tuned, and you need a *ton* of DPS to get him down before the Berserk. We don't even have Sarth+1 on reliable farm. Maly is about the same level as Sarth+2.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
I think a big part of the burnout, and I know this is the case with me, is doing Naxx over and over and over again. In a big way, I don't mind the longer Naxx runs that get gear for alts. There is not much either of my 80s can get from Naxx, but I don't mind doing it if several of the guildies are in for upgrades. That of course means, the runs take longer, but I look at it as an investment in that characters future, as well as reciprocal for when they (on their main in the past, or in the future with another one of my characters) put up with me bringing an underlevel character into a raid.
I don't really see the point in doing a full main run of Naxx in 2-3 hours, if nobody is going to get any gear out of it. A few emblems, etc., but I think our time could be better spent.
I vote for doing the first one or two bosses of Ulduar, as that seemed to go pretty well when we did it last time, and somebody is going to get something out of it. Even if we go in with no intention of trying the third boss, it's probably going to be some good upgrades for people.
The Sarth+1 thing has been a problem I think because the waves are screwed up. The first time we did it since the mumble updated, everything looked fine for me, but the next time we played I had waves disappearing from my screen as they passed. It makes it awful hard to stand in the gap, when the wave goes invisible occasionally. I did much better last time we tried, because I started treating it more like Heigan's poison---I need to know where it is going to be, even when I can't see it.
Anyway, I think this same thing happened in BC. We did Kara a lot, and people got burned out, and didn't show up for raids, and sniped at each other, etc. Then we moved on to ZA and playing was interesting again. The first times through we wiped a bit, and some of the bosses were just too tough, but after a few weeks we could one shot them, and it didn't take long before we could get to the end boss pretty easily.
I think we should do progression stuff, but with a pre-defined quit point. Lets do Malygos, and give ourselves 3 wipes (+1, if one of the wipes is really really stupid) or 1 hour, or whatever we agree upon. And we should do that first thing, when everybody is fresh. Then whether successful or not, we can go back to Naxx, or split up to do heroic zergs, or whatever. Same with Sarth+n or Emalon, or whatever we try.
I guess that all sums up to say, does any of us have any mains who are going to get appreciably better doing Naxx? If so get them in there, if not, we've got to move on.
I don't really see the point in doing a full main run of Naxx in 2-3 hours, if nobody is going to get any gear out of it. A few emblems, etc., but I think our time could be better spent.
I vote for doing the first one or two bosses of Ulduar, as that seemed to go pretty well when we did it last time, and somebody is going to get something out of it. Even if we go in with no intention of trying the third boss, it's probably going to be some good upgrades for people.
The Sarth+1 thing has been a problem I think because the waves are screwed up. The first time we did it since the mumble updated, everything looked fine for me, but the next time we played I had waves disappearing from my screen as they passed. It makes it awful hard to stand in the gap, when the wave goes invisible occasionally. I did much better last time we tried, because I started treating it more like Heigan's poison---I need to know where it is going to be, even when I can't see it.
Anyway, I think this same thing happened in BC. We did Kara a lot, and people got burned out, and didn't show up for raids, and sniped at each other, etc. Then we moved on to ZA and playing was interesting again. The first times through we wiped a bit, and some of the bosses were just too tough, but after a few weeks we could one shot them, and it didn't take long before we could get to the end boss pretty easily.
I think we should do progression stuff, but with a pre-defined quit point. Lets do Malygos, and give ourselves 3 wipes (+1, if one of the wipes is really really stupid) or 1 hour, or whatever we agree upon. And we should do that first thing, when everybody is fresh. Then whether successful or not, we can go back to Naxx, or split up to do heroic zergs, or whatever. Same with Sarth+n or Emalon, or whatever we try.
I guess that all sums up to say, does any of us have any mains who are going to get appreciably better doing Naxx? If so get them in there, if not, we've got to move on.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
There is definitely gear in Naxx that I need, particularly in Military and Constructs, and Sapp/KT. Since I can only raid Fridays I'd prefer fast runs to alt runs from a purely selfish perspective, but I'll be there either way. If everyone else really does have all you want out of Naxx, I don't expect you all to waste your time there on your mains just because I still need upgrades.
On the other hand, I think no matter what else we decide to do, we should go back to Ulduar and do what we can there first. We beat those first two bosses on what was for most of us (I think) our first time seeing the fights and didn't have huge problems apart from the unfamilarity, so yay on us, we're awesome. It was slow but once we get more familiar with the fights (and the stupid vehicles that one day I will stop failing), it will be cake. And there is a lot of great gear there.
On the other hand, I think no matter what else we decide to do, we should go back to Ulduar and do what we can there first. We beat those first two bosses on what was for most of us (I think) our first time seeing the fights and didn't have huge problems apart from the unfamilarity, so yay on us, we're awesome. It was slow but once we get more familiar with the fights (and the stupid vehicles that one day I will stop failing), it will be cake. And there is a lot of great gear there.
Last edited by demerest on Wed May 20, 2009 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
The thing is, people -are- still getting significant gear off KT, Saph, and Thaddius. Hell, only a handful of us have the Maly key token. But because the first half is 'useless' everyone wants to go to alts and we're not going anywhere. The ONLY reason I've brought Z in at all is to get a tank when we were short.
I agree, there's no point in spending our raiding hours running over and over and over Naxx for no gear. But because we farmed half of it without touching the other half for so long, we're half all geared and half not. Only a handful of people have pants, still, and a handful have helms.
Nat, I was in a Maly kill, mostly pugged, where I'm pretty sure the average DPS was not 2500. I was on the lower side myself because I bunged up my gear and wasn't hit capped. I recorded I think 1800 for me. Which was pathetic. But it went pretty smoothly anyhow.
I agree, there's no point in spending our raiding hours running over and over and over Naxx for no gear. But because we farmed half of it without touching the other half for so long, we're half all geared and half not. Only a handful of people have pants, still, and a handful have helms.
Nat, I was in a Maly kill, mostly pugged, where I'm pretty sure the average DPS was not 2500. I was on the lower side myself because I bunged up my gear and wasn't hit capped. I recorded I think 1800 for me. Which was pathetic. But it went pretty smoothly anyhow.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
Maly has so many different mechanics that destroy people's DPS it isn't even funny. *Everyone* posts lower on Maly than any other fight, because you're moving for sparks, you're getting Vortex'd, you're dodging Deep Breath, you're moving from shield to shield, you're switching targets, all the Scions are out of range, etc, etc.Eabah wrote:Nat, I was in a Maly kill, mostly pugged, where I'm pretty sure the average DPS was not 2500. I was on the lower side myself because I bunged up my gear and wasn't hit capped. I recorded I think 1800 for me. Which was pathetic. But it went pretty smoothly anyhow.
In order to have sufficient DPS on Maly, which is like 1700-2000 average, people need to be able to push 2500+ on an easy Naxx run or a stand-and-shoot like Patchwerk. If you can't do 2500 on Patches, you're not going to be able to get 1500 on Maly.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
OK, I think I'm getting it:
We still need stuff from the final two bosses in Naxx. Getting there requires clearing the first four wings, where most people's mains don't need stuff. People bring lower geared alts for that part, because they can actually use some of the stuff, but that makes the run slow enough that we can't do a full clear in one night.
So far, I think the biggest slowdown to doing Naxx has been getting the right distribution of characters. Perhaps this is just my memory from the last few runs. Mostly, three tanks for dog+zombies, three healers for four horseman, decurse for cursing guy, etc. Swapping in a ready alt can be quick, but trying to muddle through without the right composition seems to not work. Does it make sense to do a partial clear of some of the wings, and come back later, if we're going to do a two night clear anyway?
So far I'm still having fun playing Onn, so I'll keep coming, whatever we decide to do. It's been rewarding to have his DPS go up with each new upgrade he gets. I got frustrated playing Felicks because despite gear upgrades I hit a DPS ceiling around 1800 that I can't seem to break through.
I think on Friday we should do the first two in Ulduar, maybe in a time limited way, and then move on to Naxx and clear as much as we can, with the intention to come back and finish. Or, if it's incentives people require, do Naxx on Friday, and if we can get enough cleared, then we can start with Ulduar on Saturday, and finish Naxx afterwards.
The big decision is what characters do people bring. Obviously, if somebodies main is poorly geared, and they show up, then I think they should come. I'd much rather gear up in guild or to a friend, than to a PUG.
We still need stuff from the final two bosses in Naxx. Getting there requires clearing the first four wings, where most people's mains don't need stuff. People bring lower geared alts for that part, because they can actually use some of the stuff, but that makes the run slow enough that we can't do a full clear in one night.
So far, I think the biggest slowdown to doing Naxx has been getting the right distribution of characters. Perhaps this is just my memory from the last few runs. Mostly, three tanks for dog+zombies, three healers for four horseman, decurse for cursing guy, etc. Swapping in a ready alt can be quick, but trying to muddle through without the right composition seems to not work. Does it make sense to do a partial clear of some of the wings, and come back later, if we're going to do a two night clear anyway?
So far I'm still having fun playing Onn, so I'll keep coming, whatever we decide to do. It's been rewarding to have his DPS go up with each new upgrade he gets. I got frustrated playing Felicks because despite gear upgrades I hit a DPS ceiling around 1800 that I can't seem to break through.
I think on Friday we should do the first two in Ulduar, maybe in a time limited way, and then move on to Naxx and clear as much as we can, with the intention to come back and finish. Or, if it's incentives people require, do Naxx on Friday, and if we can get enough cleared, then we can start with Ulduar on Saturday, and finish Naxx afterwards.
The big decision is what characters do people bring. Obviously, if somebodies main is poorly geared, and they show up, then I think they should come. I'd much rather gear up in guild or to a friend, than to a PUG.
Re: Friday/Saturday this week (5/22,5/23)
Well whatever is going on I will be bringing Lhynne (assuming she won't be useless). I guess this is one advantage to only having one 80 :p
She still needs plenty of gear upgrades and would benefit from Nax, so I am biased and probably not the best contributor for offering an opinion about what we do. Though I still have never seen Sarth. My problem right now is between work and a shared comp it is hard to get time to do things that would provide gear upgrades so the weekend raids that I can make is where I get my upgrades mostly. Hopefully I am not a huge detriment or contributing too much to holding things back.
I will definitely be there on Saturday and hopefully Friday as well assuming I can get my girlfriend to sign the permission slip and let me use the computer ( soon hopefully she'll be back on her own with her account reactivated then you get to put up with 2 of us!)
Also I should say I really liked doing Black Temple last weekend, it was fun to see stuff that I kind of never got the chance to see. If/when we do something like that again I would love to try out The Eye
She still needs plenty of gear upgrades and would benefit from Nax, so I am biased and probably not the best contributor for offering an opinion about what we do. Though I still have never seen Sarth. My problem right now is between work and a shared comp it is hard to get time to do things that would provide gear upgrades so the weekend raids that I can make is where I get my upgrades mostly. Hopefully I am not a huge detriment or contributing too much to holding things back.
I will definitely be there on Saturday and hopefully Friday as well assuming I can get my girlfriend to sign the permission slip and let me use the computer ( soon hopefully she'll be back on her own with her account reactivated then you get to put up with 2 of us!)
Also I should say I really liked doing Black Temple last weekend, it was fun to see stuff that I kind of never got the chance to see. If/when we do something like that again I would love to try out The Eye